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Please Help ...... Budding music author looking for scan label images for a planned book project.   


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  23rd Jun 2012, 11:05 PM#1  QUOTE  REPORT  
xilef1

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1
Evening peeps,

I am making a general enquiry in regards to use of label images for a proposed manuscript project- looking for commercial chart label scans to partly use as visual illustration.
I have been informed that if so i need to get in official writing that i am free to use the images in publication and (which i was intending to do in the first instance) is to give 'blanket credit' for the allowance of the label scan usage and being image source..i.e 'Blanket Credit'= courtesy mention in print.

Some good news @ last, the publicity/press dept of one of the majors have responded to my approach and are willing to help me as much as they can regarding pictorial images / scans , so the label scans that i saw on this site that are required are from numerous labels some totally unrelated to the label that have responded, i am awaiting more feedbacks BTW. I just want make sure that all angles are covered in regards to this, i dont want to step on any ones toes and create a lawsuit hotbed.

Your advice and permission on this would be very appreciated.



  24th Jun 2012, 12:48 AM#2  QUOTE  REPORT  
Juke Jules

Maybe he's lazy, maybe he's slow
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 5325
Moderator
Hi xilef - Strictly speaking, all label images are copyright by the label owners, but I know many 45cat members are unhappy to see their images used without credits. I'm sure everyone would be happy to see our images credited to 45cat, where the full credits can be seen by anyone who searches for them
- Jules


  24th Jun 2012, 9:07 AM#3  QUOTE  REPORT  
Oakley Boys

If I Could Turn Back Time
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Moderator
Hi xilef1, any chance you can give us some info about yourself? I note that there is nothing connected to your entry in members so maybe just let us know where you are, what you are hoping to do with the scans etc?

As an aside we have had debates on this site about 'ownership' and the camps are split. It seems that the Record Label companies own the 'image' but if someone scans that image then it is common courtesy to request use of that scan from the scanner ( person not machine :happy: ).

It is however interesting to consider how Record Collector does it as they use images of record labels and I wonder how they get round it.

Edited by Oakley Boys on 24th Jun 2012, 9:07 AM

  24th Jun 2012, 10:32 AM#4  QUOTE  REPORT  
KeithS

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3905
Moderator
Usually people producing books that include label shots say "All from my own collection" although how they prove that statement is moot.
I understand how a proffessional photographer wants to give permission if some of his works are used but have never understood why record labels, mass-produced in their times becomes the sole property of someone who bought one and just scanned a copy.


  24th Jun 2012, 12:04 PM#5  QUOTE  REPORT  
harry1958

In Time i may buy a watch.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 281
What would happen if for say I had the only remaining copy of a 45 disc and i wanted to show this off to the world that is interested could the record company or who now owns that record company then demand that disc back from me saying that it is their property mass produced or not there is always a chance that one disc maybe unique and therfore who owns the right to that.


  24th Jun 2012, 12:28 PM#6  QUOTE  REPORT  
JohnnyCool

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 134
KeithS wrote:
Usually people producing books that include label shots say "All from my own collection" although how they prove that statement is moot.
I understand how a proffessional photographer wants to give permission if some of his works are used but have never understood why record labels, mass-produced in their times becomes the sole property of someone who bought one and just scanned a copy.

A complicated area this, but wouldn't it be the same as taking a photo in say, your local park, i.e. you wouldn't own the park but the photo is your own work and therefore yours?


  24th Jun 2012, 12:33 PM#7  QUOTE  REPORT  
harry1958

In Time i may buy a watch.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 281
Exactly johnny if i have bought the disc then surley it's mine as long as I'm not commercialy benifiting ? then is it not my property ie my disc my credit for looking after it for 20 30 40 yrs etc or even purchasing it with my money I am not saying i own the art work or intellectual rights but the disc is mine.


  24th Jun 2012, 12:38 PM#8  QUOTE  REPORT  
Oakley Boys

If I Could Turn Back Time
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Moderator
I suppose that you can say that about anything really to be honest. How about a picture of a London Bus. Who owns the right to that? The people who designed the vehicle? the people that built it? or even the people who supplied the red paint? where do you stop and start?

apologies if I'm repeating what what said earlier but I wrote this to follow Keith's comment but never got round to uploading straight away :sad:

Edited by Oakley Boys on 24th Jun 2012, 12:40 PM

  24th Jun 2012, 12:42 PM#9  QUOTE  REPORT  
harry1958

In Time i may buy a watch.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 281
Yeah oakley if the record co sold me a copy then the copy is mine not the right to reproduce but the right to say it`s mine that particular image if that is the one to be shown.


  25th Jun 2012, 4:57 PM#10  QUOTE  REPORT  
The Toad

It was either this or getting a life.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3751
I wonder - could a record company, discovering that I owned a promo copy of one of their singles, point to the 'Not For Sale' wording on the label and demand that I returned it to them? I hope not....


  25th Jun 2012, 7:35 PM#11  QUOTE  REPORT  
harry1958

In Time i may buy a watch.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 281
As long as you didn't pay for it No! LoL

Edited by harry1958 on 25th Jun 2012, 7:36 PM

  25th Jun 2012, 8:39 PM#12  QUOTE  REPORT  
Deltics

"It can get a bit trainspottery"
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1562
The Toad wrote:
I wonder - could a record company, discovering that I owned a promo copy of one of their singles, point to the 'Not For Sale' wording on the label and demand that I returned it to them? I hope not....

This story from 2008 might be of interest...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7412671.stm


  25th Jun 2012, 9:17 PM#13  QUOTE  REPORT  
harry1958

In Time i may buy a watch.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 281
Jeez this is bursting my chops i take that i have to wait for the knock on the proverbial door soon.............. though i'm not selling anything and dont i have a say on who use's my name (harry) not the potter bit.I think i will go back to being a hermit.


  26th Jun 2012, 9:36 AM#14  QUOTE  REPORT  
KeithS

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3905
Moderator
I've mentioned before that the main printers for record labels in Sweden closed many years ago and donated their archive with copies of every label printed with dates and quantities, to the Swedish Media Database archives in Stockholm...where it has laid untouched for twelve years!!!
I've contacted them , shown them 45Cat and offered to scan them in as an alternative to laying in a big heap somewhere.
They were very interested at first until their legal department put a stop to the idea.."Unknown Copyright Problems may crop up"


  26th Jun 2012, 11:39 AM#15  QUOTE  REPORT  
Whyperion

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6227
Keith , if they have Donated the labels , dependent on any riders , there should be no copyright problem if the items are place on the web for free access since the items are of educational , critical , purpose ( so the things like dates etc is making information avalible )

Copyright of an artistic work is normally somewhere between 50 and 100 years (depends on territory) , often counted from the date of the death of the creator. The legal remedy for breach of copyright is the amount of money lost by the creator as a result of the infringment - so if it is on the web at nil cost if would be if the creator had a competing pay for database of his work , or a point of sale of for the artwork. I dont know of any company that has done that.

They do licence label artwork use for things like reproduction on Mugs , Coasters , Posters and so on.

There is also the moral right which has unlimited damages if the artwork is use in such a way that the creator can claim the work is accompanied by something they would not agree with , eg in a mash-up poster or associated with promoting a beverage/ tobacco etc without their permission.

Where companies have ceased trading and assigned their copyrights one would have to know the legal details behind the assignments , it may be only the audio copyrights that were assigned and the artwork has been forgotten about (unlikely given that LP artwork is also normally included - but with LP Artwork the creator could well be a third party whom has only granted a licence to use his creation to the record producer/company with rights of reservation and retention of moral rights and secondary payments if the artwork is used in other ways in future including CDs x number of years on.

You could argue for your own collection of 45s that the seller of the record grants an implied licence for reproduction for the demonstration of the product to a potential acquirer (sound sample / label in entirety ) or two demonstrate to others items in ones collection.




  26th Jun 2012, 12:06 PM#16  QUOTE  REPORT  
Whyperion

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6227

Rather asks the question of if the illustrator of Alice in Wonderland got a royalty for use ( or was the books illustration just out of copyright in 1972 ? ) , possibly not , as the colour illustrations for alice ( orignal copy ) alice-in-wonderland.net reminds me was 1890: Tenniel agreed to supervise the colouring of 20 illustrations for The Nursery Alice. So its 70 years after death of JT ( except of course the 1988 copyright act as amended is what I am working on so I cannot recall the law as stood in 1972 )


  26th Jun 2012, 12:13 PM#17  QUOTE  REPORT  
Whyperion

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6227
Reply to my own post the UK 1988 act allows some specific fair dealing

The 1988 Act states that fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work for the purposes of research or private study, criticism or review, or for the purpose of reporting current events, does not infringe any copyright in the work, or the typographic arrangement of a published edition.

Fair dealing in this context applies to individuals acting on their own behalf. Fair dealing within strict parameters also exists for certain libraries and archives.

The term fair is not defined, but you can take it to mean 'not unduly prejudicial to the copyright owners' legitimate commercial interests' and is usually considered in terms of financial loss.

Often large institutions or collective agencies publish guidelines on what they consider to be reasonable in terms of fair dealing for their copyright materials.

( source of above http://www.ahds.ac.uk/copyrightfaq.htm )

its not clear if the publication of the OPs research in form of a book is fair dealing , but looks to me as if the digitisation and free publication of the Swedish Archive is.


  26th Jun 2012, 12:31 PM#18  QUOTE  REPORT  
KeithS

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3905
Moderator
Whyperion, I've sent a mail to the Swedish Music Archive with a link to this thread, lets see if anything shakes loose


  26th Jun 2012, 12:41 PM#19  QUOTE  REPORT  
Dr Doom

I know I need a small vacation
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6124
Administrator
KeithS wrote:
Whyperion, I've sent a mail to the Swedish Music Archive with a link to this thread, lets see if anything shakes loose

If it helps any Keith you can ask them to contact me and I'll give assurances that 45cat will never attempt commerical gain from the direct use of their scans/images or claim any ownership etc.

You can tell I didn't study law eh?

:grin:




  26th Jun 2012, 1:21 PM#20  QUOTE  REPORT  
Whyperion

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6227
Reverting to promotion copies. I know some were used as review items for music journos , give-aways for competitions , papers etc . Were written terms given to radio stations for pre-release airplays ( as I understand D J Versions were produced with the performance rights modified ) , and if so does this mean that youtubes using advance promos are ok ?


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