I really need to get out more.. Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 141
At Phonodisc (Philips/Polygram's UK factory) singles were ordered as "Dinked" or plain. As the production method there was injection moulding (hence the hated painted labels) they just changed the centre boss that held the stampers in place. The plain singles were a real problem to dink at a later stage and (although i didn't work on 7" production) an export order for dinked or same from a later ordering juke box operator meant another production run. Obviously if the quantities adjusted the other way then spiders were inserted for usual commercial use.
The YouTube vid of the nutter with the "utility knife" (we'll call him Stanley) should come with a health warning.
Hi BR why was it a realn problem to dink or die-cut at the later stage was this because the cutters were in use and it was labour intensive to go grab a cutter ????
I have to totally totally refute that Phonodisc inserted the spiders LOL
we had to when the cartons were shipped to the shop and the records came with a bag of spiders>>> us poor retailers and shop staff caused a big hoo-haa over this we did not think it was our job to fit 100 spiders into 100 copies of Legend Of Xanadu and so on (that was my first UK LH experience btw)
Could you possibly tell us some more esp about the centre boss and how those plates where made and finished ready to fit into the moulds. Am I right in thinking these could be faced anywhere in 360 degrees, the reason why I ask is that a have a few Phonodisc duplicates Polydor Chelsea and Vertiigo and when you compare copies the matrix numbers in the dead wax of the run-offs are never in the same place in relation to the label plate (boss??) and I assumed that as the process was fully automated that every record would have come off the press exactly the same in every detail including the label info/area's positioning in relation the the matrix on the stamper???
How about the paint did the colours have in-house names, did every run of pressings include paper label runs as it is quite exciting to find a paper label copy of a bulk standard IEP copy (Polydor titles from moulding onwards had a very very large preponderence for these over Paper labels, James Brown, Fatback Band, Kool & The Gang etc etc) were limited runs done?
Your info is just a deam and thanking you in advance
Taking into account that Phonogram used the expression 'Dinked' to mean 'having a hole punched in it at source', how about following their example? We could borrow the terms 'Perforated' and 'Imperforated' from the stamp-collecting world to denote singles with and without cuts made to enable the centres to be pushed out; and 'Nocked' for records that have had their middles pushed out - 'NOC', 'no original centre', is common parlance for records that have lost their original middles, as I'm sure you all know. Any other suggestions? I think it would help, to have an agreed terminology.
Monkeyhangers comments moved over
Surely the "dinking" is part of the actual pressing stage? (Dinking to me will always be an action performed by a Juke Box Operator anyway, but that's by the by...)
I always thought the 4-prong Centre (what you call "Dinked"!) was an integral part of the pressing process? I've actually been inside Hayes Plant to see 7" being pressed but they were all Solid Centres...
Deltics comment and film moved over
"Video clip of a professional record dinking tool in operation. This is the proper tool, not the hobby equivalents, as used by record distributors and manufacturers, record suppliers, jukebox operators, and occasional shops and landlords. Cost £125 in the 1980's" (or so it says!)
This, on the other hand, will have you all cringing!
That "proffesional dinking tool"..does that really mean that discs are dinked one at a time or does the factory have something more professional and capable of doing batches????
Also I'd love to see how Knock-out centres were punched.. what did the working end of the punch look like...were they done in batches etc etc
As has MonkeyHanger, I've always thought of 'dinking' as being the actual removal of the centre of a single. It might be useful to have agreed terms for the various states of a record: whether it (a) is solid, or (b) has perforations to enable the centre to be pushed out, or (c) has been sent out from the factory without a centre, or (d) has had its centre pushed out. Any suggestions?
Somebody I knew who used to work at EMI claimed that occasionally he used to take non-EMI singles in and get them perforated - or dinked, or whatever we decide to call it - there; this was strictly against EMI's rules, but it made the record involved unique. If that is the case, it would suggest that the perforating process is apart from that of the actual pressing
All blank paper labels supplied for use on 45s are solid, whether they wind up on a solid centre, 3, or 4-prong final pressing record.
The version shown on this page, posted by getalife #217678 and #217679, was commented on by groovemaster.dj, that "The un-dinked example looks unfinished to me...", meaning that the single should go through the same dinking process which cuts out just enough of the vinyl, to leave the 4-prong variations shown.
Some other labels on this site have exhibited printers registration marks for the purposes I assume, of aligning the dinking cutter, in the correct position, and a member, ?? commented on this on another post.
My assumption is that all singles come off the press as solid centre versions, and those with registration marks for alignment are then reprocessed through a hydraulic dinking machine, which clamps the 45 firmly top and bottom, and a die-stamp cutter passes through the centre of the vinyl, so leaving a neat finished result, 3 or 4-prong.
I have seen vinyl where the reverse side of the cut is somewhat ragged, maybe because the die cutter was becoming worn.
Of course, that is an extra process, and therefore takes time, so maybe the whole process is done in one pass, as the label, dollop of vinyl, and label are placed in the press, hydraulics stamp the press, the 45 is hot formed, and the 3 or 4-prong dink takes place in one operation.
I could be stating utter nonsense, or I could be right on the money, surely somebody out there knows
All paper labels come as die cut circles EMI were in boxes of 50 prs = 100
they all had a small X slit in the centre and are slipped over the spndle fitted to the stamper face down.
The pics shown on You tube are very simple crude die cutters NOT dinkers the die does not cut out any areas to leave a centre and a dinked record.
We had those to 1 1/2" die cut hole our undinked 45s for customers, the undinked 45 is placed inside the sides and the leaver is pulled and the hole is cut, die cut,
I have yet to see and use a dinker and I have a pile of undinked 45's that I would love to have done
Top of my pile is T.Rex Metal Guru Marc1 As far as I am aware for the best part of 40 years I have never ever seen a British dinked copy Telegram sam was dinked and Children Of The Rev onwards were all dinked why not Metal Guru's I can only assume that the promo copies were perhaps dinked I have never seen a promo of it either? I think Jukebox Operators had to die cut their copies as EMI did not have a 1 1/2" hole die cutter anymore, they never had a need for one as they had their dinking machines.
Next is My Diana Ross Rememebr Me from the 20th anniversay box set of singles it came as the only one undinked gerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!
Others include a hand full of Bell's early Apple's
Des O' C Dicker Dum Dum Columbia
Bobie Genty Never Fall In Love Again Capitol.
But T Rex Metal Guru is my holy grail that nice 4 pin centre hopefully the record was faced upright visually to get that lovely X look rather than a + but hey-ho just to see one would be like amazing!
Here's hoping hint hint !
Can I suggest or proffer to the community
A 1 1/2" L H (large hole) is called a die cut copy
A 3 pin or 4 pin centre is called a dinked copy
A small hole finish ie just off the press is called an un-dinked copy rather than a solid centre as that term implies that indeed the record was to have been die cut or dinked and that may not have been the case!
a round hole in paper or card etc etc is called die cut and the paper sleeves that the majority of our UK 45's came in were die-cut not dinked.
I think the whole miss-use of the word dink dinker or dinked has come from the Juke Box industry here over the decades and what it refered to was the size of the centre hole as being suitable for Juke Box play>>>>>>>
I say blame RCA-Victor and David Sarnhoff for the needless 1 1/2" LH and their millions of 45 changers that they $old to the kids that had to have the large stack post to encase the drop mechanics!!!!! Gerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
The patents and agreements US side between Columbia Inc and RCA-Victor stipulated that all commercial small hole 7" records had to be cut at 33 1/3 rpm only and that all commercial 45 rpm 7" had to have a 1 1/2" LH die cut and that still applies in the US to this day. Making the original format war part of Americana and that the two formats were supposed to be totally incompatable.
The RCA changers only had one speed 45 and a stack post so nothing of Columbia's could play on it., The US equipment manufactures soon made dual format players and auto changers just dont mix the 3 sizes and speeds up when you stack 'em to play!!!!!
In many ways it was a good thing that we Brits were late with the vinyl format and it allowed us to perfect auto changers for both hole sizes and all speeds
(though 16rpm would have been for a transcription disc and the size of these were 14" so how they would have played on a changer geared up for 7 10 or 12 is a mystery unless of course you know different ???
Can just about picture Mario Lanza singing Dink Dink Dink.I never heard of the word until i joined but then again i have learned more here since last September including lots of words i never heard of before than in all my school going days.
When in doubt.......accelerate........ Joined: Dec 2010 Posts: 2796
......I have used the term dinking since 1966, when a friends father ran a juke box business, and that was the term attached to punching out the centres of records, which were to be used in juke boxes.
I assume all juke boxes were manufactured in USA at that time, and therefore had to have the large hole, so that they could be played.
groovemaster.dj's excellent dissertation on how we should refer to singles looks to me to be the most practicable.
quote in italics. "A 1 1/2" L H (large hole) is called a Die Cut copy, or perhaps a US standard.
A 3 pin or 4 pin centre is called a dinked copy.
A small hole finish ie just off the press is called an un-dinked copy rather than a solid centre as that term implies that indeed the record was to have been die cut or dinked and that may not have been the case."
In the same vein, I first heard the term 'ding', in 1969 in Newquay, Cornwall, when surfers used it to describe a mark, dent or a hole in a surf board. "I've got a ding in my long board man, bummer !!"
The same term is now used to describe a dent in car bodywork, mostly caused by too many visits to supermarkets. I've got a ding in my Audi right now, caused by who knows?